Got a question for ya -- and don't take the title to assume that I'm pro-Israel, because I'm sure as hell not. Just pointing that out early so that this doesn't become a "bash the hell out of Zionist McDanger" thread, because I'm sure as hell not a Zionist.

Anyway, there's a lot of controversy over civilian deaths in the current conflict between Hezbollah and Israel. My question is, how do you give Hezbollah a bye when it comes to positioning their operations right next to civilians?

It's plainly obvious that they hope for civilians to be killed so that they can demonize Israel. What do you expect Israel to do (other than roll over into the sea)? Hezbollah fires rockets at Israel in areas that are selected for their ability to put a large number of civilians at risk. Should Israel sit back and let them fire rockets? If not, what other actions should they take? Obviously giving them land back doesn't work (given the current situation).

Either way -- how do you place the blame on Israel in these situations, or SOLELY on Israel for that matter?

7/31/2006 3:37:49 PM

My post from the lounge thread:

Quote :

"it's all fucking propaganda. hezbollah is parading dead children in front of the tv cameras and reporters know this shit is propaganda. You don't think israeli kids have been killed? Why don't we see those pictures? Because israel doesn't feel the need to parade their dead in front of the cameras. The only thing more valuable to Hezbollah than a dead Israeli child is a dead muslim child. Because this is the only war they can win: the propaganda war. Seems harsh, but think about it."

7/31/2006 3:43:35 PM

McDanger you fuckin zionist

7/31/2006 3:44:18 PM

i'm glad george w bush got 5 solid years in before his administration started going to shit

7/31/2006 3:57:45 PM

McDanger

You've made an excellent point. I hope you don't expect the terrorist apologists around here to have a decent explanation.

7/31/2006 4:00:17 PM

I think for the first time, all the conservatives on this entire board have posted back-to-back-to-back-to-back. We're it guys. We're the only non terrorist apologists.

[Edited on July 31, 2006 at 4:03 PM. Reason : .]

7/31/2006 4:03:36 PM

I'll ask why the jews shoot missles from populated areas and risk getting bombed , other than that Mcjew, why would Israel willingly killing civilians in that ideal, do you support killing civilians?!?!

7/31/2006 4:08:58 PM

Wow. Only thirty-two minutes of echoes and you declare victory?

[Edited on July 31, 2006 at 4:10 PM. Reason : fuck]

7/31/2006 4:09:51 PM

leave it to a liberal to argue something this simple

7/31/2006 4:11:40 PM

Thats what I've wondered too.

They're all like ZOMG ISREAL@!$#!#!

While standing next to a guy with a missle launcher.

7/31/2006 4:13:22 PM

^^^^What the fuck are you trying to say? It isn't 4:20 yet, why can't you form sentences?

[Edited on July 31, 2006 at 4:13 PM. Reason : one more for bugs bunny]

7/31/2006 4:13:22 PM

Israel only kills muslims, this is a good example

7/31/2006 4:17:27 PM

Firmbut...I still don't get what you're trying to say.

7/31/2006 4:21:22 PM

Do I give off the sugar coated smell that has all these fucking bugs trying to crawl on my legs for attention? I'm not your mother, I don't have a want or need for your individual concerns, take advantage of your free will and use it to make a valid point.

7/31/2006 4:25:57 PM

Well you living-cuntnoggin, I was trying to respond to your first post. But you didn't make any sense with it so I was looking for a bit of clarity. I see now that there was no decent point in your post that was just masked by typos. You really are just that stupid.

7/31/2006 4:27:50 PM

i agree McDanger

7/31/2006 4:29:44 PM

10m after 420 and she's toasted. She doesn't make sense.

7/31/2006 4:30:32 PM

Quote :

"What do you expect Israel to do (other than roll over into the sea)?"

The problem with being associated with liberals is that ultimately you're viewed as wishy washy on common sense questions. Allow me to demonstrate a firm-wristed answer:

Present the state of Lebanon with two options:

(1) Cooperate by removing, capturing, and/or extraditing Hezbollah members to Israel as it continues its operations against the organization.

(2) Face a limited invasion of the southern part of your country taking place, lots of civilian casualties, and the risk of a broader, potentially explosive, conflict breaking out in Northern Lebanon as Hezbollah attempts to regroup there (or at the Syrian border...*shudder*).

Obviously, the first would be the optimal scenario, but their government is so weak that its cooperation would be a token effort at best. Their efforts would primarily be centered around intelligence gathering, focused on minimizing collateral damage (think leaflets) and locating underground distribution networks. However, by cooperating, the Lebanese government would be able to provide some valuable, early assistance in averting a humanitarian disaster, and a lot of collateral damage.

And if it comes down to option two, which it's obviously trending towards, Israel's going to have to be annoyingly clear about its aims and expectations. It's already begun this by loudly proclaiming that this is a limited conflict, whose aims are specific to removing the threat posed by Hezbollah on its border.

Quote :

"Should Israel sit back and let them fire rockets? If not, what other actions should they take?"

Frankly, they're not far off base with what they're doing.

Quote :

"Obviously giving them land back doesn't work (given the current situation)."

Hezbollah (+ other Islamist organizations) != The Arab World

[Edited on July 31, 2006 at 4:55 PM. Reason : ...]

7/31/2006 4:49:54 PM

and you all thought gamecat was a nut.

7/31/2006 4:51:47 PM

Quote :

"It's plainly obvious that they hope for civilians to be killed so that they can demonize Israel. What do you expect Israel to do (other than roll over into the sea)?"

In the west we expect our police forces to always be in the right. If a bad buy just murdered someone and is running away through a crowd of civilians you do not shoot at him, even if it means he gets away. Some states will not allow the police to engage in high-speed persuits, because it risks civilians.

These policies obviously increase the number of civilian deaths due to criminal activity, but the reason we do this is because it minimizes civilian deaths due to governmental activity. One is far worse than the other because it erodes public support of government while the other engenders it.

Now, in this instance, it strikes me that Israel is not making the same trade-off. Aerial bombardment sounds very indiscriminate, more like a military backlash than a civil police action.

I can't speak very well on the subject, but it strikes me that Israel should purchase a few key positions accross the border and man it with locals paid to watch for and arrest cross border criminal activity. Another option is to station snipers along the border and whenever a rocket is launched they try to take out the shooter from over a mile away (not very probable, but you only really need to watch areas within striking distance of the border).

And the final option, of course, is to invade and occupy its neighbors (we'll see how that works out).

7/31/2006 4:53:56 PM

^ Note the cooperative element above. Intelligence is everything unless Israel wants to cause the apocalyptic stink the Left Behind freaks are expecting any minute now...

7/31/2006 5:00:41 PM

who here is a Rabid Supporter of Hezbollah/Hamas/Arab Militants?

cxmai is all i can think of off the top of my head

7/31/2006 5:16:41 PM

OEP is another. Not sure how many more there are, was just curious.

7/31/2006 5:17:14 PM

i think the only people who are pro hezbollah are the arabs who just dont want us all up in their shit (OEP) and the anti-semites (salis/cxmai).

7/31/2006 5:26:49 PM

I don't think there are many truly "pro-Hez" people on here, but I do think there are terrorist-apologists on here a lot.

They usually masquerade it by saying that Christianity has extremists too and they just don't get the attention. Namely, they use the Crusades (OMF, close to a millenia ago) and abortion clinic bombings (which are like, rampant I guess).

I get their point, you shouldn't blame the religion, you should blame the fundamentalist. However, I think we should all be able to concede the point that outside of the crusades and inquisition, the Christian religion has tempered quite a bit and in its current form, is less likely to breed a violent extremist than Islam. Not that Islam is bad, but that it can be taken to violent fundamentalism faster than a lot of other religions.

7/31/2006 5:42:26 PM

^^ don't forget the french/germans/russians

Quote :

"Gamecat: Present the state of Lebanon with two options: "

Son of a bitch Gamecat. Why are you making sense for once?

[Edited on July 31, 2006 at 5:43 PM. Reason : ]

7/31/2006 5:43:15 PM

well cxmai has stated 'LONG LIVE HEZBOLLAH' so heshe is without question, a supporter.

7/31/2006 5:45:06 PM

Quote :

"However, I think we should all be able to concede the point that outside of the crusades and inquisition, the Christian religion has tempered quite a bit and in its current form, is less likely to breed a violent extremist than Islam."

This is only because the current form of the religion has been molded by our cushy, materialist society. If the majority of Christian extremists that you see in America lived in shit-conditions where they barely had more than the shirt on their backs, you'd see a lot more violence. As it stands now, why risk that sweet lifestyle?

7/31/2006 5:45:34 PM

Yeah, but for all I know that sentence was a fake

7/31/2006 5:46:08 PM

McD, possibly. I didn't say why it was tempered, only that it was.

What about predominately Christian, but still third world nations. Do you see as much religiously-based strife?

7/31/2006 5:47:11 PM

No, but there's not exactly uh...

How do I put this. When Christianity was clashing with local religions during its spread with colonialism, then yes. But a lot of third world areas that are Christian these days don't have the equivalent of an Islam/Judaism conflict or conflict potential. If I'm wrong please show me, I very well could be.

7/31/2006 5:50:48 PM

Hahaha... I am NOT

an Arab

a Hezbollah supporter

a Hamas supporter

an Arab militant supporter

I have been calling for a cease-fire here for some time now.

So, the only thing I could be accused of is being a rabid civilian supporter.

As for the question, we can look at it on a small scale.

I would love to type it all out, but surprisingly, LoneSnark, who is always on the diametrically opposite end of the political spectrum relative to me, said it beautifully.

Hezbollah is diabolical when it fires from next to civilians, but that DOES NOT make Israel's response--knowing full well that bombing back will kill the civilians--NOT wrong. In fact, it makes it doubly diabolical. If I shoot at you surrounded by shoppers at Walmart, and you as a police officer, shoot back knowing that I am so close to the shoppers that a few civilians will be hit, you will be doubly evil. And you know YOU WILL GET INTO TROUBLE, and maybe even debadged or sentenced. So why can't we apply that to countries.

As for what they SHOULD do, if they shouldn't throw stones back, I guess what Gamecat said hits the sweet spot.

[Edited on July 31, 2006 at 6:00 PM. Reason : ]

7/31/2006 5:58:20 PM

Christians tend not to leave enough people behind to oppress...

7/31/2006 5:58:48 PM

Is anybody on here, not counting trolls, a supporter of Hezbollah?

7/31/2006 6:09:28 PM

dead serious: cxmai.

She said that she hopes that Israel gets nuked by Iran (not a sign of a hezbollah supporter) but she also vouched for hezbollah and all their social services. She even went as far as to call hospitals "hezbolopitals." She's a terrorist.

7/31/2006 6:14:56 PM

Quote :

"It's plainly obvious that they hope for civilians to be killed so that they can demonize Israel."

Evidence?

Quote :

"If not, what other actions should they take?"

Perhaps make a prisoner exchange, as Hezbollah supposedly wanted.

Quote :

"how do you place the blame on Israel in these situations"

It's easy. If Isreali forces drop a bomb and kills someone, it's [the government of] Israel's fault. Simple enough for ya?

Quote :

"SOLELY on Israel for that matter?"

There's plenty of blame to go around.

Quote :

"Now, in this instance, it strikes me that Israel is not making the same trade-off."

Good grief. I'm close to agreeing with LoneSnark on this subject.

Quote :

" So, the only thing I could be accused of is being a rabid civilian supporter."

Come on. If you criticize Israel, you obviously support the terrorists. Haven't you learned anything by now?

Quote :

"She's a terrorist."

She's probably not even a she.

7/31/2006 6:29:23 PM

Look, abonorio, I know you're really, really stupid, but even to your dim faculties it should be clear as fucking day that cxmai is a trolling alias.

7/31/2006 6:31:40 PM

nah dude. If she's a troll. she's rather elaborate.

But i'm not that dum.

7/31/2006 6:35:14 PM

Quote :

"Evidence?"

The placement of their operations. That and the fact that they're trying to intentionally deceive the international community -- it was exposed on CNN recently. Fake ambulance runs, etc.

7/31/2006 6:41:30 PM

^ Do you find it more damning that they do it, or that they were caught doing it?

I'm just asking because it seems obvious that all sides of a conflict do things like this, some are obviously just more skilled at it. Look at the toppling of the statue of Saddam in Baghdad for an example. That went off smoothly.

Quote :

"GoldenViper: Perhaps make a prisoner exchange, as Hezbollah supposedly wanted."

Your honest to goodness solution to this is positive reinforcement?

I mean, it's obvious how this saves lives today. But what prevents Hezbollah from interpreting this as an effective strategy for getting the rest of their prisoners released? Wouldn't it be a logical conclusion for them to draw?

[Edited on July 31, 2006 at 6:43 PM. Reason : ...]

[Edited on July 31, 2006 at 6:46 PM. Reason : ...]

7/31/2006 6:42:44 PM

Quote :

"The placement of their operations. That and the fact that they're trying to intentionally deceive the international community -- it was exposed on CNN recently. Fake ambulance runs, etc."

Does this prove they want civilians to die for propaganda purposes? They might just want to make it harder for the Israelis to target them.

Quote :

"Your honest to goodness solution to this is positive reinforcement?"

It's something nations at war do, or at least have done in the past.

Either way, the airstrikes are unacceptable.

[Edited on July 31, 2006 at 6:46 PM. Reason : lies]

7/31/2006 6:43:17 PM

Quote :

"They might just want to make it harder for the Israelis to target them."

Well no shit, and what shield is it that makes them harder to target?

Civilians.

7/31/2006 6:44:11 PM

Quote :

"GoldenViper: Does this prove they want civilians to die for propaganda purposes? They might just want to make it harder for the Israelis to target them."

Why can't it be both at once?

Quote :

"GoldenViper: It's something nations at war do, or at least have done in the past. Either way, the airstrikes are unacceptable."

Exactly.

These aren't nations.

[Edited on July 31, 2006 at 6:49 PM. Reason : 2]

7/31/2006 6:44:47 PM

Quote :

"Well no shit, and what shield is it that makes them harder to target? Civilians."

Yeah, but none of that proves they actually want the civilians to die.

7/31/2006 6:47:01 PM

They know Israel's gonna bomb regardless.

What do you think goes through their heads?

7/31/2006 6:48:53 PM

That's what I'm getting at. You have to know they're at least thinking that the damage caused by the bombing will be mitigated by the effect of the civilian casualties on their cause. Otherwise you're just being argumentative.

[Edited on July 31, 2006 at 6:50 PM. Reason : ...]

7/31/2006 6:50:08 PM

Quote :

"What do you think goes through their heads?"

Certainly not, and neither do you, which is my point.

I'm sure Hezbollah members have to use civilian areas, just as IDF planes have to bomb them.

[Edited on July 31, 2006 at 7:00 PM. Reason : have]

7/31/2006 6:57:55 PM

What convinces you that Hezbollah is so strategically incompetent?

7/31/2006 7:02:54 PM

Quote :

"What convinces you that Hezbollah is so strategically incompetent?"

Either you didn't understand my post, or you're way ahead of me. What do you mean?

7/31/2006 7:04:59 PM

this is the first time that goldenviper has come across like a dumbass.

i'm not sure if he's just not explaining his position well or if he actually is reasoning like a dumbass in this instance.

7/31/2006 7:13:35 PM